Bryan_iscool (bryan_iscool) wrote in humanism,

Debating a Mormon

My Debate With a Mormon
My Arguement: 

As an atheist/Humanist, I deny the exsistance of God, or any other Deity/deities and concern myself with topics such as Morality, science, the welfare of people etc. My philosophy teaches me that the only way anyone deserves to be treated and should ever be treated is with kindness. Indeed, i strive to always follow this although there are times when i don't. After i finished reading 'The End of Faith' I learned alot about the dangers of irrationality, religious violence, and how it inhibits this world from progressing. I agree with the author in that religion is shown to much respect and is too protected in our, as well as most societies. This protection prevents people from seeing how dangerous religon can be. Another thing i learned from 'The End of Faith.'


In politics, i am very liberal and am strongly opposed to the war (which is a religious war) that has caused thousands of our troops to perish and a myriad of suffering to their families. Although, I'm not a conservative, I believe abortion to be murder and think it should be illegal. I base my views/beliefs around evidence (psycological, historical, scientific etc) and what i've seen leads to believe there is no God. Although, like i said earlier, there is no concrete evidence, so i accept the fact that i could be wrong.


In science i accpt Evolution as a biological fact as there is an enormous ammount of proof in it's favor (the moths, giraffes, carbon d
dating, fossils, all the diffrent breeds of dogs, and the fact that historical records indicate that we are getting bigger and more intelligent). I think it's a definate fact that life has been evolving over millions of years. Of course, i realize that this doesn't disprove religion in any way, it's just something i believe in.
 Mormon: I would disagree with the author on that: Religion is protected because it is the basic right of all people inherited by all on this Earth.  Of course religion can be used for evil, but to think that is what religion only does is going so far off and ignoring the bigger picture.  Anything can be used for evil if anyone wants to.  What has eugenics been used for?  The Holocaust, and many other genocides.  Eugenics is a basic property of evolution.  What can  feminism be used for? Women's rights and fair treatment, it can also promote abortion.  The media has skewed the true nature of Islam which has given everyone the wrong idea, that it is a primitive violent religion.  Islamic societies have been two steps ahead of most Western Societies.  While Women in Europe were wearing corsets and sitting to look pretty, Islamic women were doctors and philosophers.  Most Western countries have been heavily influenced by Islamic countries.  Islam does not preach kill the infidel that is a regional and political thing.  And guess what Darwinism teaches: Survival of the Fitist, completely contradictory to social humanitarianism.  If Darwinism was taken in literally it could easily be used to teach for man to look out for himself.  You said you concerned your self with Social Welfare with people so I assume you are very much a humanitarian.  Does this so called book tell you that Religion can also be used for many good things?  How about being neighborly, and brining neighbors together instead of unto themselves?  How about being there when needed when natural disasters occur and the Government can't get it's act together, churches step in and help.     

The war is not a religious war, that's an utter load of nonsense.  It's a war of political social climbing between nations.   With cells of killers in the Middle East The United States wants to stake a claim to be one-step-ahead.  Iraq doesn't exactly have a rich supply of Oil either, not in comparison to Saudi Arabia or Kuwait.  If it did why are we paying $5 for gas?  

I accept Evolution as fiction. Nothing more than simple fiction created by man.  But it sounds like you could be more Agnostic instead of Atheistic.

My Rebutle:

I kind of agree with you- Religion definatly deserves respect and concideration, just like any other belief.; however I believe that we've given it too many concessions in our society. Like, in some states innocent things like drug use (harmless drugs like marijuana and ecstasy) are banned from use. Engaging in homosxual sex is banned in thirteen states in the USA and people who partake in such activites may be prosecuted at the cop's discretion. And there are millions of Americans suffering from incurable diseass like HIV, cancer, diabetes etc. These potencially fatal diseases may be cured if the government would allow and support Stem Cell Research, yet because our Holy Books state that it's wrong Congress banned it. I also disagree with you about the genetics thing. Evolution does not, in any way advocate the killing of millions of people; it just tries to explain the exsistance of the universe, simply put. Eugenics is something people have applied to Evolution, but Darwin didn't condone such a thing. As for Islam; that faith teahces that most women go to hell simply because it's very sexist and it subjugates women. Did you know that if a girl/woman dishonors her family, she can be murdered? Things she could do that can disgrace the family include bening things such as: having premarital sex, getting raped, being outspoken etc. Clearly, we can see that Muslim men treat women far worse than Americans.


You do know why the terrorists attacked us on 9/11 right? They did it cause the Koran teaches them to hate us. I can get you a source if you want. You can deny it and call it a political war all you want, but it's is still a religious war.


There is strong, (although not 100%) proof for Evolution. Even Mormons believe in Evolution; if Evolution isn't true than why do 95% of scientists believe it?

Mormon's rebutle: Utter bull crap the Koran does NOT state such things. Do show me where it does.  Even if it does it also always says find peace before war.  Heck even Jihad doesn't mean Holy War it means personal struggle.  Again things Muslims do is purely misinterpretation of doctrine or a political/geographical thing.  Islam does not teach these, have you even read the Koran? Again Islam always has and always will teach women are to be held in the highest regard.  Things like the head scarf or veils again it's a political thing it's not in the Koran.  The Koran teaches modesty among women.  9/11 again it's a political war in the guise of religion messed up by the Media mongles who are too lazy to crack a book.  Same goes with Evolution, it doesn't condone slaughter of people but my point is like Religion it can be used to do that.

Ecstasy is hardly a harmless drug.  I'd believe Marijuana is more harmless than ecstasy. 


Of cours I've read it- I wouldn't be making this claims if i hadn't. Anyways here are some quotes from the Koran. It teaches Muslims that fighting for Allah and dieing for him will gt you into heavan with '72 dark-eyed virgens' Anyways here are the quotes; "A fire whose fuel is men and stones awaits them" (2:24) "God's curse be upon the infidels!" (2:89) "The unbelievers among the People of the Book '[Christians and Jews]  and the pagans, resent that any blessing should have been sent down to you from your Lord" (2:105) "Do not say that those slain in the cause of God are dead. They are alive but you are not aware ofthem." (2:154) Slay them wherever you find them. Drive them out of the places from which they drove you. Idolatry is worse than carnage (2-190)


Now do you see why they are so violent? The Bible teaches similar things for unbelievers but clearly that hardly ever happens in America. Like Sam Harriis said, we can only be peaceful by ignoring the barbaric instructions of God.

If women are so revered and respected then why do Muslims abuse and harm/kill women so much? Why do women lack basic human rights in the Middle East?


With that being said, it's clear that this war is religious. Jihad and other terrorist groups despise us cause their religon teaches them? If you still don't believe me, read those quotes again. Seriously.


Okay, i admit ecstasy was a bad example. But don't you think it makes us a bit hypocritical to allow alcohol, but make marijuana illegal?

Mormon: Yes but there are also more verses preaching peace.  I would list them but sadly I don't have the Koran with me.  Again the reason women are abused is political reasons.  Misinterpretations of the Koran have lead to such violent behavior.  It's the same with Christians somehow we've all forgotten Love thy Neighbor.  Selective ignorance it happens because we're human and we make mistakes.

Probably frankly I find both equally dangerous.  It should probably just be up to states to decide who wants marijuana and who doesn't.  It could be a figurative place but I would have to do more research.


More verses preaching peace? But what about the verses i've just shown you? I fail to see why Islam is known as the 'religon of peace' with such meaningless drivel it's littered with. About the women; it's common knowledge that Islam, and the Koran treat women like their inferior cause the religon advocates for it. Unfortunately, i don't have the Koran with me either, but i've read such sexist passages in it. Islam also teaches that those who die for Allah will be richly rewarded by him which is the reason Muslim suicide bombers exsist.


Seeing as how most politicians are Christians, i doubt that'll ever happen. Marijuana also has no prevalent halth risks; it can actually reduce stress, alleviate physical pain, and it can also be used to attain a peace and soothing feeling.


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